The horror of (Triangle Tube Prestige Installation)
trying to find an installer that will install a Triangle Tube Prestige. I have a 1914 house that has been gutted, re-insulated and put back together by me. I had a fhw steam conversion system. Demo'd the old boiler in the basement and all the old 2 1/2 steel pipes. I'm starting from scratch with everything but the radiation- we have 12 (way oversized)ci rads and like the look and heat they generate. I'd very much like to install a progressive and efficient boiler but I've spent a TON of money fixing up this house and don't want to go crazy w/ the install cost as I can't see being here for more than 5 years. My fuel bills w/ the old beast were not crazy(c. $2500 for the year). I was interested in the TT because of the price point and good reviews(here). I've met w/, oh, 12 - 13 installers and 10 of them recommend ci boilers that are sized b/w 130 and 170 btu(I have a heat loss of 70,000). I found one installer willing to install the TT for 20k- which is about 3 times what I want to pay for the job. My question is: I've found a guy that will do the job for a reasonable price and doesn't seem to have the 'tude of the other guys. Should I just say install the TT and pipe it per specs or is there more to this than a straight ci install? Are there advanced tests and calibration that should be done? Are they unique to condensers? Thanks! Is the radiation piped to anything at all? Radiation is piped to second floor only. Need to run new loops in basement for all zones. That piping is gonna cost... if they do it twisting black iron, the labor is really high and if they do it in copper the materials are really high and PEX is something I'd be weary of, since the cheaper stuff is not for hydronic usage... I'd be worried about anyone bidding too low actually. Have you contacted the TT rep in your area and see who they will recommend? That's how I found my installer... He just contacted me cause he saw this post and gave me some names. Good idea. Do you have the 110? What is your heat loss? I have a 110... My heat loss is 56K, but in reality it's about 38K which is also about the minimum modulation for the Prestige. Despite essentially no modulation it is still my top pick boiler. I have it piped so that it can run direct or primary secondary. It runs great either way. Direct uses less electrical. Anyone know what the going cost for installing a Triangle Tube Prestige boiler is these days? I'm interested in probably the Solo 110 with an Indirect Fired Water heater and the prices I'm being quoted seem all over the place.... Initially I'd planned on installing a new boiler and replacing my hot water heater with an on-demand system. Then I read about the Triangle Tube Prestige with indirect water heater and thought it could be a better route... but I'm a little stunned at the prices... $10K depending on market and depending on how much extra stuff is being done. Barebones simple swap out maybe $8K. Just guesses here. What part of trhe country are you in? I just installed my Prestige 110, and it is working beautifully. I originally wanted to use a viessmann, but as a DIY, I was unable to purchase one. I did purchase a TT 110 online for about $3200, and had no issue issues with the installation ( other than a few bad sweat joints that I had to redo. First I bought and read cover to cover: Modern Hydronic Heating (Siegenthaler), which saved me from making many common errors. I am using a Coilex 40 stainless sidearm DHW, and burnham cast iron baseboards. Works great. Also using a Taco zone controller, grundfos pumps ( CH secondary and DHW boiler loop ). I built my own condensate neutralization unit ( basically a horizontal section of 3 PVC filled with crushed limestone ) which brings the condensate to a ph of about 7.5 ( boiler puts out about 3.0 ). The Prestige installation manual is quite good, and whatever wasn't in there I found in the book mentioned above. svenyonson... good stuff. Were you able to get the MCBA all dialed in? who: - not sure what you mean by dialed in, ( Honeywell MCBA ), but the wiring went smooth, and I've been monitoring the boiler status ( temps/pressure ) on all outputs and returns. I haven't yet used a combustion analyzer for emissions, but I have an HVAC friend who will check it out sometime soon. I did have one E18 lockout ( over temp ) - after fixing a leak, I forgot to bleed the air out of the boiler piping, and so even though the pressure switch let the boiler fire, it was air, not water in the system. I'm surprised the LWCO is a pressure switch and not a water sensing switch. After I purged the air out, it's been working perfectly. I left all of the parameters set to factory defaults ( set points, etc ), and so far so good. When only one zone is calling for heat, I can hear the built in check valve in the secondary circ rattle around ( I assume the flow rate is to low with only one zone open ), so I'm going to take that out and put in a Taco SwetChek just after the pump. If the circulators are mounted in the vertical position when they have internal checks this can happen. If these circulators are mounted in the horizontal position this will normally go away. Did you install the outdoor sensor? If you want to tune the MCBA let me know offline. Thanks guys - I appreciate the replies. who: I'll ping you offline about the tuning - I did install the outdoor temp sensor, and it seems to be doing what it is supposed to - if it is cold - 10 F, the set point is around 150+, but if it is 50+ outside, the set point goes down to around 90. This does concern me, as at this temp the circulators are running almost all of the time - and I'm guessing there will be a trade off with the electrical cost of running the circulators longer vs burner efficiency at a higher set point. My heat emitters are cast iron baseboards, so once up to temp, they stay that way for a while - so I think tuning the MCBA might be a good idea. rbeck: The circulator is mounted vertical, so I guess that explains why I hear the noise. Since I have a spare Taco SwetChek, I'll just add that in and remove the internal Grundfos check instead of reorienting the pump. I do have another question though: The Prestige 110 has separate outputs for DHW ( no internal circ ) and CH ( internal circ for the primary loop ). I have the CH circuit piped with primary/secondary, and both the CH secondary and the DHW loop are using Grundfos circulators ( as is the Prestige CH internal primary ), and the DHW loop has a Taco 241 check valve. All piping is 1. The problem is this: When a CH zone is activated, the DHW loop piping slowly becomes hot to the touch. The DHW loop is definitely NOT being activated, as I pulled the aquastat wire and unplugged the pump. So the CH primary is inducing some flow in the DHW loop. My big concern here is that since the Prestige is a modulating boiler, sometimes the CH set point will be as low as 86 degrees ( if it is really warm outside ). This means that any induced flow in the DHW will cool the water in the tank and eventually result in a call for DHW heat. I haven't put the DHW loop in service yet ( I want to figure this out first ), but I imagine that this situation would cause DHW / CH cycling. My first thought is to install a zone valve on the DHW loop, which can then activate the DHW circulator when it opens. Thoughts? Do you have a flow check valve on the DH loop? Thanks for the responses (back in MARCH) to my query re: installation costs for TT. Got a little derailed on the installation back then.... I was curious about DIY installation or at least purchasing the system on-line and finding a HVAC person to install. I found the system on-line at a reasonable price, but have been told by several installers (those that were recommended by TT distributor) that they have to purchase as well as install or the warranty is void because TT requires certification. As an alternative to the Prestige TT with the indirect hot water system (and to save some $$), I'm considering going with a Burnham boiler and a Rinnai tankless... any thoughts? BTW- I'm in DC metro area.... and trying to get this all installed within the next month. Thanks. Originally Posted by WitsEnd I was curious about DIY installation or at least purchasing the system on-line and finding a HVAC person to install. I found the system on-line at a reasonable price, but have been told by several installers (those that were recommended by TT distributor) that they have to purchase as well as install or the warranty is void because TT requires certification. BTW- I'm in DC metro area.... and trying to get this all installed within the next month. Thanks. I know this thread is a bit old and I'm not sure if anyone's still reading it, but WitsEnd, did you ever find an installer? We're in the same boat. Buying a TT online, but need someone to install it. I would be happy to do it myself, but am swamped with many other house things. In fact, if anyone is interested in seeing what we're up to, please visit our website at http://greenrenovation.us/ Please post or e-mail joe at greenrenovation.us if you know anyone who's reasonable on the TT installation. It would be great to know what you paid so we can compare, as well. Thanks! Joe As a certified installed of the triangle tube boilers I have a couple of things that may help you guys out. Definately install the outdoor sensor and definately have someone reprogram you boilers you will probably be cold with factory settings if you live in the. Tristate area. The ch terminals are for heat and the dhw terminals are for hot water and are a priority. You should not have a primary pump or secondary pump turn on with the water heater pump and do not put a zone valve on the dhw. There is no need for it. I simply use taco 007 with a internal check valve on the dhw. I do roughly 3 boilers a week and they are triangle solos and buderus 91% oil boilers. As far as I am concerned the 2 best one the market to date. I have been putting in the triangles for 5 years and can count on less than one hand the number of service calls I have had on them. If you use a certified installers or a certified guy to set up you boiler he can sell you a 10 year parts and labor warranty on the boiler. And the smart series water heater is the best because it comes with a lifetime warranty to who evers name is on the warranty card. I hope this helped any other questions just reach out. I hope I help some of your questions.p The several kilobuck installation costs mentioned sure sound high. Is that for a complete installation or just the boiler? My situation is an existing in-slab radiant system with a 70's AO Smith boiler that I'd like to replace with a high efficiency unit and get the tax credit before it expires at the end of the year (or are they likely to extend it?). Just went to the Triangle Tube installer training program. (According to the guys that run it, I'm the first homeowner to ever do so ) Amazing program, very informative, well worth it if you plan to DIY the boiler. I now feel way more confident in this project, definitely doable. Also, now that I know more about the boiler, I'm even happier with my choice of the TT - it's really superior to most of what's out there. That's not just their sales pitch talking, the other students were all pros of various types, and all confirm that the TT is the most reliable and least maintenance-intensive Mod/Con they've ever worked with. I too attended the TT training in Blackwood back in September. I highly recommend this for anyone considering a self install.This is a very professional operation, I learned so much about the boiler and program it. I am a homeowner who installed a used Burnham boiler 16 years ago after reading the same book mentioned above. After much research online I chose TT. I met a lot of good HVAC professionals at the training and asked them a lot of questions as well as the instructor. I am one weekend away from firing up my new system. (gas meter arrives Tuesday) I spend my weekends in the basement. The install went smoothly, after much coaching from the folks at the training session I went primary/secondary. I designed my system after studying the presopac kit. I keep a running spreadsheet, so far I am at $4.848.01. still have to buy 12- 3/4 90's to switch over from my oil burner to my new system. I am re-using the Erie control I have. I used 3 taco 007s for 3 zones, (same as the older system) I have a Amtrol boiler-mate for DHW, but after all the kids left, I installed and on demand electric and by-passed it. I have piped the solo 110 to use the DHW output with circ pump and all, but I will wait until i see the gas bill before connecting the Amtrol. (I hope the Amtrol's thermostat plays nicely with the boilers input.) Once again, I can't say enough about the TT staff, the training and the guys who attended the training. You gotta go. I guess they were wrong about me being the first homeowner After sweating the small stuff, pun intended, the start up was a breeze. The gas co. hooked me up, bled the air, and watched as I turned on the solo 110- it cycled through a few times until it got gas- and bingo! it worked! I am the consumate pessimist. I had only put one zone on the new unit, I did not want to plunge the house into coldness, so I only hooked in the 2d floor (unused bedrooms). Tomorrow I turn off the oil burner, drain it and change the basement and 1st floor over. No more buying diesel fuel at $3.35 a gallon to pour into the container I have feeding the old boiler. (took the 375 gal tank out to make room for the TT solo 110. At the training they told me to set the lower limit to 120 for baseboard heating. I will play with the curve a bit in the MCBA. I did produce a lot of water, s to I know it it condensing which means saving money! (incoming temp below 130) I am still trying to figure out what setting 1, 2, 3 to set the supplied grundfos variable speed pump to. It came set on 3, but looking at specs, that may be too high. the delta t was no help as by the time I got around to checking the incoming and outgoing temp, they were the same, which led me to believe the 3 setting is too high. oh add another $159 for a taco controller and elbows and some t's and 3 more boiler drains to purge each zone. I should have put a ball valve to isolate the pipe that connects supply to return just past the double T's on my primary loop. I could not use the valves at the end of each manifold to purge the system because water ran back down to the return side. I must have missed that detail on the pictures of the presopack kit. Hi folks. I too am a home/cabin owner just returned from the Denver TT training last week. After seeing and learning about that Alpha pump, and hearing about my instructor's average of about a five watt draw from it in his home I have decided to ditch my secondary circulators and go with a single three speed primary pump and one secondary Alpha pump with zone valves. I have a small system with just two radiant zones in a 1000 sq foot slab. Since I had already purchased a Taco SR controller I just ordered 120 volt Honeywell zone valves to keep it simple. The Alpha just stays plugged into the wall, amazing! I didn't ask this at training, can the closely spaced tees that adjoin the primary loop to the secondary be vertical as long as the diameter multiples are followed in the spacing and secondary lengths of adjoining pipe? It would suit my installation better. Also I have read in the forums that if boiler piping is below the Solo unit (mine a 60) the outboard LWCO device can be installed on a cross fitting opposite the pressure relief valve at the top of the boiler, negating the need to bring up the supply side piping just to accommodate the LWCO? I enjoyed the training. It was a lot to cram in my head over a day and a half though. Have not got my certificate yet how long did it take to get it? I do have my hat, tee shirt, and manuals of course! I got my certificate at the training center on the second day. Don't know why you didn't. I too got a smart circulator (Wilo Eco in may case - more or less the same as the Alpha), but I wouldn't leave it plugged into the wall all day - it should be turned on only when there's a space heating call. Otherwise, when all the zone valves are closed, it's pumping for no reason, which is a waste of energy (and probably bad for the pump). I don't think it ever fully turns off - just goes to lowest setting. Yes, you can have T's oriented any way you want - mine come up from below, and work just fine. At the NJ training center they have a bunch of Solo's set up just that way with a LWCO. Basically, they have one more T, one more street elbow, and one more close nipple. The arrangement is then up from the boiler into a T, then straight up through the T is the LWCO. Out the side leg of the T is an elbow+nipple to another T, straight up through that T is the air vent, and out the side of that T is another elbow up into a pressure relief valve. Looks like you have a brass tree growing out your boiler, but works well according to the TT staff. Thanks good to know. Grundfos says (in their literature and videos) the Alpha does a long term system analysis and turns slowly with no load waiting to sense a valve reopening. I will leave it plugged in for the heating season as my Taco circulator controller, unlike their zone valve controllers, has no dry contact output for a common circulator pump, and I don't really want to tie it to the primary loop pump as I think the boiler has reasons of it's own to just run it by itself. I don't want to add any stat controlled relays out board of the controller either. The instructor told me the certificates come from NJ, probably why you didn't have to wait for yours. I went to CO for the scenery but only saw the mountains once when we landed. They sure treated us right. It is great finding this thread, I will chime in when I get the boiler mounted and start in. If you do a google search on 'precision hydronics prestopak' then click on the solo 110 kit picture you will find a great group of pictures. I used these to model my install. I put my air scoop along the wall just before the pumps and hung the pressure tank below it, but these pictures saved me a lot of head scratching. The wye strainer is an important part of the install. I even ordered 1 long 90's to make it look just like the pictures. (it probably cuts down on resistance too) I have my T's exactly like the kit. I still hate the fact that the T's being so close together will ruin my Delta T, but this is standard practice- the factory trainers said to put the T's real close. I would love to see these pictures. Are you talking about the houseneeds site? I am not having any luck at all since all I get are further sales item links. Perhaps you may have an actual link for me to follow? One question though for anyone. In TT's piping diagrams they show the boiler primary loop entering the closely spaced tees on what looks like the secondary loop piping, through the branch of the tees rather than on the straight thru piping what normally is illustrated as the primary loop. The rules about 8 diameters and four diameters appear to apply to the secondary in these instances and not the primary. Why I didn't ask about this in class I have no idea. This works either way? Here is a picture from the brochure Here is a picture of my set up part way done. icture of my set up- half way done. Precision Hydronics Web Link to more pictures PHP, Precision Hydronics Products I was looking right at that picture, but couldn't find a link to others you referred to. I had never pictured the closely spaced tees oriented that way and it seems to be a great space saver. Also the locations of the common gauge on the supply and individual gauges on the return legs are inspiring to me. I will be using one system circulator with a couple zone valves but I think I will try to adapt this basic design also. Thank you very much, I was looking right at that picture but had just assumed it was something more high end. Have you been able to achieve the ideal delta T for optimum condensation to take place with your short primary loop? Will I need the check valve on my primary return in my arrangement given that my primary and single system pump will always be on together, or is it needed to prevent some sort of migration thru the boiler itself(anyone)? I have zone pumps with integral flow checks in them, so i don't have to have an in line flow check. They are not that $ if you get them on-line. not sure if i can mention the on this forum but for $68 it was worth it. It has not been that cold here 23 is the lowest. I have the internal circulator set at 1. It seems to keep the delta t lower when one zone is calling for heat. I really cleaned the fin tube baseboard heaters so they would give off more heat making my return water that much colder. So far I get about 3 gallons of water in a bucket per day. I will play with my reset curve when it gets a lot colder. param 4= (min) 120, para 10= (max) 150, para 11 (coldest day) -10, and param 12 (warmest) 60. this seems to keep me condensing all night. I will have to change param 10 when it gets colder in January. Right now it is 29 out, the house is set at 67 and water is just pouring out. I find it hard to get the temps of the supply and return with my laser temp gun unless I point it at the unions, or the back of the circulator where the direction arrow is. Must be round copper does not reflect the proper light back. One thing i would do different is put a ball valve on the long run going up to the circulator tree. this would make it easer to purge air by isolating each side of the loop. I find it hard to get the temps of the supply and return with my laser temp gun unless I point it at the unions, or the back of the circulator where the direction arrow is. Get some flat black paint and paint the area of the pipe you wish to measure. Infra-red thermometers are notoriously inaccurate when measuring 'shiny' metals, even if it's no longer shiny! Google emissivity for more info on this... some of the expensive IR thermos have adjustments for the emissivity of the material being measured. Not quite as accurate, but certainly quicker would be to put a piece of black electrical tape on the pipe. Above all, if you are comparing temps between two different materials, it must be done with an equivalent surface. If you use black paint on one, you need to put it on all... Very interesting, keep thinking out loud. If you ever shoot more photos of your install I would love to see them. Did you make your own neutralizer or are you just using a bucket for the time being? I have a septic where my boiler is going so I will have to configure something. I will make my own acid neutralizer out of pvc pipe and marble chips, then pump it over to a drain that goes to the septic. I don't have a floor drain. I will buy a condensate pump on-line. Everything is running fine. I am having a small problem getting air out of the heat exchanger. Because the T's are so close, I think that air just loops back around. I switch the internal pump to 2, then 3, I hear air get pushed out, quickly put it on 1 and listen as the air loops back in. Some does make it to the air separator, so I will just keep at it. I also think that over time the disolved oxygen in the water will slowly work itself out. It only seems to come from the heat exchanger. I thought i read somewhere that bumping up the pressure a bit might stop air from leaving the water as it heats up. Here is a pic- as you can tell I am an amateur, but it was a great project. Thanks for the alternative angle photo. I have seen the Webstone purge tee used, do you think that would solve the problem? From what is available you would probably have to go with the one with the 1 1/4 main body and the 1 branches, but you are not going to disrupt your whole piping tree for that. I have also seen a few displays showing marine grade type W outdoor cable w/compression fittings connecting the various pumps, valves and sensors to the boiler and control boxes. I would like to try that if it will hold up in any inspections. being obsessive, every night when I get home from work I tweek my system. I figured out that if I set all circulators running, then turn the grundfos internal circulator up to 3 it pulls the water and air of the primary loop and out to the air seperator, and a bit got by but was picked up when it came around again. Call me old fashioned, but i like the old low tech air scoop better than the new fangled VorTech with the screens in it. I gave up on trying to find the temp. of the water in the lines with my lazer temp meter (even after painting the pipes black) I found a neat site that shows make a digital thermomter for about $5.00 assuming you have a digital multimeter kicking around. I will send off for the parts and, yes, solder them together. Then just touch it to the pipe and get the true temp. Hi Guys, I installed a TT Prestige Solo 60 a month or so back and it has not been going so well. I was hoping someone good help me out. After installation the boiler would lock out do to ignition issues E-2 when it was below 30 outside. A simple reset would bring the boiler back online and it would start right up. It pretty much happened every night once it go cold here. I talked to TT Service and they said the boiler should be combustion tested and adjusted. I found the local TT installer and had them come tune the boiler. The mixture was quite lean. Sorry to say the service man did not really seem to know what run the boiler or what it should be set at. Not a good sign. I dug out the manual for him and told him put it in high fire mode. He was able to adjust the mixture to to be as rich as possible which brought the boiler into the manufacture suggested range. After adjustment: C02 was 9% (8.8-10.5) 02 5% (2.3-5.3), CO 46ppm, CO air free 60ppm Gas inlet pressure 8.5. Efficiency 89% Excess Air 28% So that was on the 8th on the 17th it tripped out again as I was watching it. My sister heard to boom as she was walker in my back door, 5 booms later it locked out. The boom seems to be getting worse when it starts and thought it seems to be catching on the second or third try the last few days. I am now alerted to the sound and i keep hearing now. Not sure what to do. 1. Get the boiler company back, 2. Call TT services 3. Stick potatoes in the tail pipe and launch them into the neighborhood Anyone have any ideas or suggestions as to what is going on? Could fluctuations in the inlet gas pressure be causing this? - Ugh - I just heard it again - Erik MobileMe Gallery Sounds like you need to get in touch with the factory. Is it a natural gas unit or a LP unit? If it is LP, is it a new tank or an existing one. The manual for the 110 unit shows a special propane orifice- not sure about the 60. It's Natural Gas - it seem to depend on the weather outside. I bought a gas gauge to see if it is related to gas pressure.
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